‘How do I find out who I am?’

en’s reviews editor John Woods speaks to Andrew Bunt, part of King’s Church Hastings and Bexhill.

Andrew is Emerging Generations Director at Living Out and a training and resources consultant for New Ground Churches. He studied theology at Durham University and King’s College London.

en: Congratulations on the publication of Finding your Best Identity. A Short Christian Introduction to Identity, Sexuality, and Gender. This is not your first publication in this area. What distinctive things does it bring to the table?

AB: The key distinctive is at the heart of this book. When it comes to identity, our instinct is to ask: ‘Who am I?’ Which is a good question, but we forget to ask: ‘How do I find out who I am?’

This book explores what the Bible says about identity. It deals with how we form our sense of self. In my own journey I have found that the best way to discover my identity is to ask: ‘Who does God say I am?’ I don’t think that there is a book that engages on a popular level about how we can not just know but experience who God says we are.

en: How aware do you think the UK church is of the importance of the issues you raise in this book? In what way is the church a conveyer of unhelpful stereotypes on issues of identity, gender, and sexuality?

AB: I am encouraged that there is a good awareness of all three of those topics. In my various roles I am aware that lots of churches want to engage well with these topics and want to see things Biblically, and love people well. I think there are also some people who feel intimidated by them, so there is still need for good teaching and training.

There are some unhelpful stereotypes about sexuality and gender. I think that there is an assumption that gay and trans people are not going to be interested in Jesus. We have too little faith in the power of the gospel and the goodness of God. One of the things I want to share is the message that there is a good story to tell about these topics, and therefore we can expect Jesus to seek and to save those who are lost.

en: You write about exploring the parameters of what it means to be a male or a female, so as not to be trapped by the expectations of others.

AB: That has been so important in my own life. There was a time in my childhood when I felt that I was a girl trapped in a boy’s body; that feeling naturally went away as I grew up, which is not an uncommon experience. But I was left with the sense of not making the cut as a man, not being a real man. It was not until my 20s that I realised that I was being measured against a certain set of criteria of what a real man is supposed to be. I had to take this to the Scriptures and ask: ‘What does the Bible say about being a man or a woman?’ God has given us a certain identity in our bodies; we do not need to act or feel in a certain way to be a real man or woman, we receive it from God as a gift.

The parameters of living this out are quite small: there is the parameter of our external appearance, which is why the Bible speaks negatively of cross-dressing; there are the parameters of different roles in marriage relationships and church leadership (Christians have different views about that, but potentially that is a viable reading of Scripture). Otherwise, there is remarkable freedom. Gender stereotypes talk about what is often true, but not of what must be true. They are not rules I must live up to in order to be a man.

en: Your book is very personal. What does it cost you to write so openly?

AB: It is very personal because it is a book that I have lived before writing it.

A lot of my ministry is rooted in personal experience; I spend a lot of my life speaking before crowds or writing about my own experience. I like that, partly because I find it a very redemptive thing. Many of the things I share in the book were difficult things to go through, but I find it incredibly redemptive that God is now using that story to help other people. God loves to take things in our lives and use them for the good of others. I also think that I have become comfortable sharing very personal things, even things that some people might think are embarrassing, largely because I have become secure in who I am in God. People might think I have made mistakes, or am a bit pathetic in my experiences, but knowing who I am means that these things do not need to shape how I feel about myself. Having lived through the story related in the book, I am not afraid to share my experience with others.

Biography has become a popular way of speaking theologically; of course, that has a great historical vintage in the Apostle Paul and beyond. We are in a culture that really values personal stories; it is an effective way of communicating and connecting as a pastor with others. It does what Paul’s letters do, reminding us that theology is never abstract or theoretical, it has roots in life experience. A semi-autobiographical approach helps people see that these are not abstract questions but real-life issues for me and the people they love.

en: I loved the way that you affirm the better story of the gospel. Why is it so important for the church to affirm the gospel’s counter-narrative both within the church and in our prevailing culture?

AB: It is extremely important for me as a guy who is same-sex attracted.

Seeing the beauty of the big story of the Bible’s view of sexuality has the power to help me to see – and then do – what it says. This is more compelling than looking at a few individual texts that might prohibit same-sex relationships. This is a far better message for us to bring to the world. There is a beautiful plan and purpose for sexuality. Yes, there are parameters as to how we live them out, but that is because this good story has a good outcome for us, and is good news for the world. This better story reflects the heart of God – in Genesis we are told: ‘You can eat from every tree in the garden, but there is this one that you must not.’ The heart of God is focused on generosity, and the serpent comes along and tries to twist it to suggest that God is a stingy and restrictive God, when He is generous and good.

en: You write: ‘To those who helped me find and experience my best identity… Thank you for loving me until I started to believe it might actually be true.’ Inhabiting the gospel story is not instant – I guess this means that the church needs to be patient?

AB: Absolutely. I am so grateful for those people I dedicated the book to, because they were so patient with me. They would have heard me go over the same ground time after time, but were so patient.

The transformation of conversion is instantaneous, but the realisation of what that means in our lives is a process. I have learned from them that to love people well and pastor people well does require patience. It is okay if people go around in circles because that is how we move on, we spiral up rather than go up in a straight line!

en: How can you describe the importance of friends and the church community in helping us hear this better story?

AB: We talk up friendship in married relationships, but we need to give the same attention to other friendships. We say things like: ‘They’re just friends,’ thus devaluing friendship. Even things such as most of our leaders being married, means many illustrations in sermons come from marriage and nuclear family life. Pastors seem to affirm those relationships, and never really mention other friendships in their lives. This can send a message to the congregation. A practical thing for the church to do is to make sure that people have time for friendships. If church activity fills our diary, it is very difficult to invest in meaningful friendship.

The gospel helps us to be open and honest with people, unashamed to be so, and to be vulnerable; and love each other as Christ has loved us. That is the foundation of deepening friendship.

en: It was helpful to read what you have written about sexuality being a signpost to a deeper reality, and that going straight to the reality means you do not need to be fixated with the signpost. Is there a danger here of downplaying the conflict, tension and suffering endured by those who have been unsure of their identity.

AB: Yes, there is a danger in that; it is a tightrope that you can never quite get right. It is important to recognise the real-life impact of this: people’s pain and frustration is real. This is something we should acknowledge and validate. Yet I want to pair that with broadcasting the good news, to help people see there is something better on the other side. I need my friends who are alongside me to have confidence in the goodness of what God says, so that on the days when I am struggling, they are spurring me on. I need them to acknowledge the pain and the difficulty and frustration that can come on those days and, if they can, lift my gaze beyond this to a better place in my experience.

en: The Living in Love and Faith Report has brought these issues into the national discourse; how would you advise your Anglican friends to navigate the way that they show love and act faithfully on these issues?

AB: I am not myself in an Anglican context, but I am very aware of Living in Love and Faith, but not directly involved in it. I like the heart behind that sentence that combines those two things; those two things are what God has called us to do. The challenge is to see what that looks like. I am always struck by Jesus talking about loving God and neighbour, and that all the Old Testament Law is summarised in that. Some people say: ‘Jesus says to love other people as we love ourselves, that should then roll into acceptance of same-sex relationships.’ But Jesus says that the expression of that love is summarised in the Old Testament law, which says that sex is reserved for one man and one woman in marriage. It is really important for us to let Scripture define what is it to be loving. It is for us to see God’s plan for us as His creatures. He as the Creator knows what is best for us in directing us into the best and life-giving paths. We want to sit under God’s word on these issues but not lose sight of the fact that in these issues we are dealing with real people. My advice is that we want to submit ourselves to God’s word, and we want to be thinking: How do we help people who are personally impacted to thrive and flourish?

en: Same-sex attraction has been a popular and much-used term in the past decade or so – why is it such a useful mechanism, and does it have any drawbacks?

AB: It is one of the complexities of this discussion that there is no unproblematic language. One drawback that some people experience with using this particular language is that it was the sort of language used, more so in the States than here, in what was known as the ex-gay narrative. When there was a big emphasis on Christian faithfulness, in experiencing a change in sexual orientation, in which a person needs to go through various stages of therapy or quasi-therapy to experience that. So for some people that term is unhelpful because it brings up experiences which were harmful, and sometimes quite unhelpful. There is a slight limitation in any language we have; same-sex attraction implies a very static experience, and for most of us sexuality is a static experience, but for some it is not. There is considerable research now showing that men and women’s sexual attraction can be quite fluid. One problem of using any one descriptive term can make us feel that we are very firmly in one place. Yet our experience might change over time even if we have labelled ourselves firmly.

It is a useful term if used to describe my current experience while being open to the fact that this might change.

en: Is there also a sense that the term might limit the potential power of the gospel to change?

AB: Yes. Which brings us to that fact that people can change in their sexual orientation. All we know is that [some] same-sex attracted people are attracted to one person of the opposite sex with whom they do develop a relationship. There is a risk that the term might narrow down expectations of the way that God might give us the gift of marriage to someone of the opposite sex. So, the term is a helpful descriptor, because it usefully describes our present experience, but not to see it as our core identity, which must shape and control how we live.

en: It seems that the transgender debate has almost crept up on the church, and the church has seemingly been unprepared. Why do you think that is and how do we prepare ourselves for what might be around the curve?

AB: We do as a church tend to be behind the curve. In part, the conversation has moved incredibly quickly, particularly in what we are seeing among young people. I think that sometimes we are not sufficiently engaged with the world around us and anticipating the ways that people in the world are thinking. We need to ask: ‘Where are the rumblings happening? Where are things beginning to change?’ I think that when we see what is happening among celebrities, it is often a foretaste of what is going to happen in the future. Regarding sexuality, one of the things we will see more widely is polyamory – relationships between more than two people. We are beginning to see some celebrities who are in open relationships and polyamorous relationships. We are beginning to see some films and dramas with those kinds of narratives. Those are the things that are going to slowly change public opinion. People might be against such actions, but as soon as we have seen a nice TV drama about it, or celebrities sharing their stories, public opinion can quickly change. We need to ask: ‘What is the trajectory of the way this culture is thinking, and what are some of the early shoots of what is happening?’ It is often popular media that leads the way because it is the thing that shapes people’s thinking and ethics.

en: So many issues are rooted in hermeneutics; reading the texts like Genesis 1 and 2 and reading the gospel story well in coming to ethical conclusions is important. What advice would you give to Christians in general and church leaders in particular on laying down a good hermeneutical foundation?

AB: It is important to grasp the big picture or overarching message about things like sexuality and gender in Scripture. The good news of the big story is much more powerful than individual prohibition passages. It also gives us a parameter by which we can test everything else. One of the things that makes me question the hermeneutic of readings of Scripture that affirm same-sex relationships is that they struggle to find any overarching explanation of the Biblical story on sexuality, and the purpose for sexuality. This is why going to the words of Jesus is so helpful. Many people are saying: ‘Of course the Old Testament is against these relationships, but Jesus never said anything about sexuality and gay relationships; Jesus doesn’t have an issue’. You always have an issue when you are pitching Jesus against the Scriptures. Bringing people to Jesus shows that He affirms what was said in Genesis to underline that marriage is between a man and a woman. This is particularly helpful for a younger generation: ‘You say that you are a follower of Jesus, well, what does Jesus say?’ This shows that following Jesus is following what He says.

en: If there was one piece of advice you could give to your teenage self, what would it be?

AB: It would be asking that question: ‘How can I find who I am?’ To explore the way that works and the world around us. So much of my life was about allowing other people to shape who I am. It was allowing my life to be shaped by what I assumed people thought of me. In lots of different ways that has been quite a problematic thing for me. I was well into my 20s before I realised that this was happening. I could have given all the textbook answers on what the Bible said about my identity in Christ, but I was not experiencing that, so I was incredibly insecure, and had lots of mental health issues on the back of that. I was a perfectionist and workaholic because I was trying to get people to think well of me, to get a better sense of self. So, my advice to my younger self would be to think about that question: ‘How do you find out who you are?’ Then to take active steps not only to know what God says about me, but to work those truths into my heart and experience it to be true.

en: In your most positive moments, what are your dreams for this book?

AB: There are two reasons I wrote it. One is, I had had a very strong experience of knowing what the Bible says, yet I was not actually experiencing it. I had a suspicion that this was not an uncommon experience. One dream is that lots of people can take that step, where they not only know what God says, but they really experience the security, peace and joy that brings. I hope that people will find that this is not merely a book that informs them, but one that forms them. The reason I wanted to write it was that I was noticing more and more that, both on sexuality and gender, people were making the argument: ‘How can God make people deny who they are?’

I thought that no one has done a book-length accessible engagement with that. What I wanted to say is that who we are is who God says we are, and our best life is living out who He says we are, not following just what our sexual desires, or our sense of gender is. If in any way it hits those two, I will be pleased.

en: When most people come to church and become a Christian, there is a period when they can feel that they are in a twilight zone. That can be rather invisible for some people, but people coming from a gay or trans background might feel rather exposed. How does the church help them?

AB: By handling it like Jesus. Jesus was not afraid to engage with people who were living in ways that were well out of line with what God said. Jesus was not afraid to really love them. He does not seem to be afraid to love them in such a way that it seemed as if He was affirming them. We often hold back because we are afraid of affirming what people are doing. His example to us is so helpful here. I also think it is important to communicate that all of us have fallen short, and do fall short of God’s standards, in ways that are not always obvious; we are all on the same page. Some people from a gay or trans background can be made to feel that they are the worst kind of sinners. The message of the gospel is that we are all on the same page, and the good news is available to us all.

en: A truly better story! Thank you, Andrew.